Steve answers the question, "How do we overcome Resistance? He fights independently for “glory”. True Love Story. It didn’t do anything for him. The scene where Hector and Andromache are forgiven is considered one of the most emotional moments of the poem. Hector farewells Paris, Priam, Andromache and Helen, preparing to meet his fate. Although, Hector loves his family, chooses the path of honor. Brian, I don’t see it as that at all. I recommend reading this story. He was the husband of Andromache and the chief warrior of the Trojan army. This is tradecraft. Andromache was the wife of Hector, son of Priam, and was on the way to becoming the future Queen of Troy. Andromache in Captivity, by Frederic Leighton, First Andromache, foreseeing Hector’s death, pleads with him to withdraw from the fighting. We might compare the story of Hector and Andromache to another great love story, that of Aeneas and Dido in Vergil’s ancient Roman epic, The Aeneid.. Aeneas is a distant relative of Hector and also a prince of Troy. I don’t know, if I was listening to Homer recite hours of lines, probably over several days, I think I would have been really depressed that everyone I invested interested in died, and for nothing. Andromache was the wife of Hector, son of Priam, and was on the way to becoming the future Queen of Troy. Updates? According to her relations, Andromache was bereft after his death, and decided to move back to Cyprus permanently. Andromache’s eagerness, as shown by her running, supports the idea that her relationship with Hector is not forced. unwell unquestionably come more formerly again since exactly the same nearly very often inside case you shield this hike. ElinorBruce84642901. So they mourned in his house over Hector while he was living still, for they thought he would never again come back from the fighting alive, escaping the Achaian hands and their violence. Unlike Helen going along is silence, Andromache “came running up to meet him” (V, 466). Andromache, one of the few female characters in the Iliad, is part of perhaps one of the tenderest sections of Iliad. When Hector takes off his helmet and reveals his face, Homer shows that he is a human and loves his family very much. The Iliad: Hector's wife Andromache hears of his death at the hand of Achilles 08 November 2006 Hector's wife had as yet heard nothing, for no one had come to tell her that her husband had remained without the gates. When we turn pro, we give up the comfortable life but we find our power. In some accounts, his father was the god Apollo. So glorious Hector spoke again and took up the helmet with its crest of horse-hair, while his beloved wife went homeward, turning to look back on the way, letting the live tears fall. The side that suffers even after a victory because of the loved ones that are lost. You have reached the end of "Andromache". The end of Book VI is the famous scene between Hector and Andromache and their infant son, Astyanax. Andromache was the wife of Hector, prince of Troy, in Greek mythology. Great excerpt. Please add a review or Read Reviews; If this is one of your favorite stories, make a recommendation; Tell your friends about this story - short address https://tthf.me/j64W "Hector" is the next story in … Here is one of the most poignant and tragic scenes (at least in its outcome, foretold but unstated here) in all of epic poetry. In Homer ’s Iliad he is represented as an ideal warrior and the mainstay of Troy. Look, I’m an international relations major, and I don’t particularly care about classic Greek literature. “Dearest, your own great strength will be your death, and you have no pity on your little son, nor on me, ill-starred, who soon must be your widow … ” She reminds Hector that all of her family have already been killed in war, including her father and seven brothers, all slain by Achilles (who is destined as well to defeat Hector in mortal combat. The next time I learn a weblog, I hope that it doesnt disappoint me as a lot as this one. I read something by a thoughtful modern soldier that made me think of this, and thought I was the only one who was wrenched by reading this. Although, Hector loves his family, chooses the path of honor. From Homer’s Iliad, in the Richmond Lattimore translation from the University of Chicago Press, this is the moment on the battlements of Troy, when the Trojans’ great hero Hector has left the fighting momentarily; his wife Andromache comes to speak with him, … This story is complete. Steve shares his "lessons learned" from the trenches of the five different writing careers—advertising, screenwriting, fiction, nonfiction, and self-help. Death happens, but death sitting on the sidelines and doing nothing while your country, or in this case, city-state is being attacked is far more repulsive in nature. Hours to make, seconds to comment. ), “Hector, thus it is you are father to me, and my honored mother, you are my brother, and you it is who are my young husband. All her relations perished when Troy was taken by Achilles. 1:45. Who is the Roman equivalent of the Greek god Ares? Hector was the first-born son of King Priam and Queen Hecuba, who was a descendant of Dardanus and Tros, the founder of Troy. Here is one of the most poignant and tragic scenes (at least in its outcome, foretold but unstated here) in all of epic poetry. All Rights Reserved. From fruits to winged sandals, test your knowledge in this study of Greek and Roman mythology. The shield of Hephaestus pretty much shows the good life in peace and also the despair war can bring. He kills Hector and drags him around behind his chariot. He himself would be killed in battle by Achilles; his son slain, still an infant; while Andromache indeed was borne off into captivity, though her life’s end came, in old age, as a queen. The tragic story of lovers and Homer's syllable inspired more than one generation of artists. According to Greek mythology, Andromache was a princess of Thebe and the wife of the Trojan prince Hector. An MFA in Writing in 197 pages. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Second is Cassandra. Hector married her after her city was sacked by Achilles and her family was killed. “Astyanax, in Greek legend, prince who was the son of the Trojan prince Hector and his wife Andromache. WATCH IN HD, PLEASE + earphones. At the time of the Trojan War, Priam was on the throne of Troy, having been made king by Heracles years earlier, following the death of Priam’s father, Laomedon. For one, the protagonist of the epic isn’t a man who fights for a home he loves or people he loves. ", A New Video Series from Steven Pressfield. What strength and courage to endure all that Andromache did. According to Greek mythology, Andromache was a princess of Thebe and the wife of the Trojan prince Hector. But it is not so much the pain to come of the Trojans that troubles me, not even of Priam the king nor Hecabe … as troubles me the thought of you, when some bronze-armoured Achaian leads you off, taking away your day of liberty, in tears; and in Argos you must work at the loom of another, and carry water from the spring Messeis or Hypereia, all unwilling, but strong will be the necessity upon you; and some day seeing you shedding tears a man will say of you: ‘This is the wife of Hector, who was ever the bravest fighter of the Trojans, breakers of horses, in the days when they fought about Ilion.’, “So will one speak of you; and for you it will be yet a fresh grief, to be widowed of such a man who could fight off the day of your slavery. Pros have pro habits. 4 Metaphorically speaking, Andromache, an incredibly loving wife, dissuaded her husband from going to war. Andromache was, in Greek legends, the wife of Hector, first-born son and heir apparent of King Priam of Troy and Priam’s wife, Hecuba. Andromache grew to be one of the most beautiful of all women, and as befitting of her beauty and her position, Andromache would marry Hector, the son of King Priam and heir to the throne of Troy. Even as she begs, Andromache … The play is actually in two parts, and like Sophocles ’ Women of Trachis, it has no central character. Second Chapter: Andromache to Hec It shows that peace and civility, not war and glory, are what should be sought after. What you’re saying about a theme of sacrifice and patriotism may have some function in this portion of the text, but when considering the epic as a whole it seems less likely than an antiwar theme. I don’t have any credentials. After an exciting beginning marked by strong anti-Spartan feeling, most of the original characters in. Andromache is a Greek tragedy written by Euripides (c. 484- 407 BCE), one of only 19 plays (out of 92) to survive. She is a frequent character in the collection, and is mentioned throughout Thomson’s correspondence by friends and family – Thomson and Lady Thomson appear to have been particularly fond of her. She was the daughter of Eetion who ruled over the city of Cilician Thebe. One of the only people in the world he cared about was killed so he went on a rage of blood lust thinking it would be the catharsis he needed. HectorAndromache. Having failed with three earlier attempts at novels, here's how Steve finally succeeded. A short book about the writing of a first novel: for Steve, The Legend of Bagger Vance. It is this portrait that took David to Academie Royale elections in 1784, after its presentation on August 1783. Hector The Helicopter with his friends in Car City: … Hector's name could thus be taken to mean 'holding fast'. He was a prince of the royal house and the heir apparent to his father's throne. (Her son Molossus was claimed as an ancestor by the kings of Molossia in historical times—until the demise of the monarchy in the 3rd century bce.) He killed Hector in this battle but then he was killed by Paris. And as she came in speed into the well-settled household … she found numbers of handmaidens within, and her coming stirred all of them into lamentation. She pleads with him not to return to battle, explaining that all of her other relatives have been killed by the Greeks and he is all she has left. After a night of love, Hector and Andromache write each other long, heartfelt letters . Encyclopaedia Britannica's editors oversee subject areas in which they have extensive knowledge, whether from years of experience gained by working on that content or via study for an advanced degree.... Who led the Argonauts in search of the Golden Fleece? He killed indiscriminately and without thought. After leaving Paris, Hector goes to see his wife, Andromache, and their infant son, Astyanax. All her relations perished when Troy was taken by Achilles. Andromache Mourning Hector was painted way back in 1783. Hector named him Scamandrius after the River Scamander, near Troy Iliad, Homer relates that Astyanax disrupted the last meeting of his parents … I would recommend “The Greeks” by HDF Kitto. The bad guys win. Thus, Andromache would leave Thebe and set up a new home in Troy. Hector is my favorite character in the Iliad. War Stories. Biography. Along with Helen, she is the only other mortal woman to have any substantial speaking lines in the entire epic. Hector’s dire predictions were of course all to come true. Please check your entries and try again. After the death of Helenus, Andromache returned to Asia Minor with her youngest son, Pergamus, who there founded a town named after himself. The location of this painting is in the museum Musee du Louvre, in Paris. I might like war just a little bit less. Hector was a classicist, so the mythical love story of Hector and Andromache would have been one familiar to him. I mean, I do know it was my option to learn, however I truly thought youd have something attention-grabbing to say. His discussion on Arete uses this scene as an example. It shows the happiness that was once Troy contrasted to what will soon come to pass because of war. They mourned as well they should, but they were proud of him and his courage and he loved his family. This scene just furthers that message by giving voice to the often unheard side of war–women. Set on the night before Hector battles Achilles. Andromache, in Greek legend, the daughter of Eëtion (prince of Thebe in Mysia) and wife of Hector (son of King Priam of Troy). This book shows you how to keep going with your work. Salvato da Kara King. On The Virtues Of Killing Children by the pseudonymous Grim, posted at Blackfive. Thanks, Steve. This play is set in the aftermath of the Trojan War. The story of Andromache would be made famous by Euripides, and was a tale of highs and lows. When given the choice to live a long life but have no legacy or to live a short life with an eternal legacy he chooses the latter, a choice it seems he regrets later. Achilles arrives outside Troy alone, calling out for Hector to face him. A bonding moment between mother and father occurs in this scene when Hector's helmet scares Astyanax, providing a moment of light relief in the story. Let us know if you have suggestions to improve this article (requires login). Hector and ‘Mackie’ were married for 67 years – they were a true love match. IF YOU LIKE MY VIDEO, PLEASE, SUPPORT ME HERE: https://ko-fi.com/laurakenji THANK YOU! Andromache and Hector's love is crucial to the tragedy of The Iliad. Word Count: 676 After the death of Hector and the fall of Troy, Andromache is given as a special prize to Neoptolemus, son of Achilles. Ring in the new year with a Britannica Membership, This article was most recently revised and updated by, https://www.britannica.com/topic/Andromache-Greek-mythology. Hector’s nobleness to defend home and family fail. Then his beloved father laughed out, and his honoured mother, and at once glorious Hector lifted from his head the helmet and laid it in all its shining upon the ground. Rather it is a picture into the soul of those that go into harms way to try and ensure the lives of others are safe. After Hector's death in Iliad 22, Andromache's foremost concern is Astyanax's fate as a mistreated orphan (22.477–514). And I’ll second the recommendation about Kitto. Such ancient masters as Virgil, Enny, Ovid, Neviy, Seneca, and Sappho also wrote about Andromache. (Hector's brother, Paris, was the guy who stole Helen of … Amateurs have amateur habits. Please check your email for further instructions. The sketch is tasteful, your authored material stylish. Because of great anger, Achilles seeked revenge for the death of his friend. nonetheless, you command get got an nervousness over that you wish be delivering the following. Recommend Theodore Roosevelt “Man in the Arena” excerpt. He still doesn’t feel relief. Be on the lookout for your Britannica newsletter to get trusted stories delivered right to your inbox. She fears that she will lose Hector and that their son will grow up without a father. First Chapter: Hector to Andromache. Metaphorically speaking, Andromache, an incredibly loving wife, dissuaded her husband from going to war. 34:40. Achilles VS Hector - Troy 2004 Epic Movie - The True Story Of Troy An Immortal Legend. All I can say is I studied and read the Iliad over three weeks in a Civ class and to me antiwar seemed a much stronger message than the typical Greek themes of glory or fate. The first part of the play deals with the plight of Andromache. From Homer’s Iliad, in the Richmond Lattimore translation from the University of Chicago Press, this is the moment on the battlements of Troy, when the Trojans’ great hero Hector has left the fighting momentarily; his wife Andromache comes to speak with him, accompanied by a nurse and their infant son, Astyanax. But may I be dead and the piled earth hide me under before I hear you crying and know by this that they drag you captive.”, So speaking glorious Hector held out his arms to his baby, who shrank back to his fair-girdled nurse’s bosom screaming, and frightened at the aspect of his own father, terrified as he saw the bronze and the crest with its horse-hair, nodding dreadfully, as he thought, from the peak of the helmet. Please take pity upon me then, stay here on the rampart, that you may not leave your child an orphan, your wife a widow … “. The need of men to be warriors, true to the ideals of our nation, and to continue the traditions of virtue, liberty and freedom. A few short months later, she too passed away. Omissions? The only scene more heartbreaking for me is when Andromache is about to have her son taken from her arms to be dashed upon the rocks by the Achaian soldiers in The Trojan Women by Euripedes. Hector and Andromache. King Priam mourning his son Hector It is a portrait of the warrior at home, war forgotten as he watches his son play and talks with his wife. Steve shows you the predictable Resistance points that every writer hits in a work-in-progress and then shows you how to deal with each one of these sticking points. I love everything about it Steve. She then became part of the spoils of war, one of the captive women of Troy, and was given to the son of Achilles. Corrections? I cannot read it without breaking down into a heap of bawling. Both heroes and their families (or whatever Patroclus is to Achilles) die so no one is left to make amends. War destroys families, and that is the end of it. The story of Hector primarily comes from Homer’s Iliad, one of the two complete works from the Epic Cycle. Hector’s response is that of the classic Homeric hero: Then tall Hector of the shining helm answered her: “All these things are in my mind also, lady; yet I would feel deep shame before the Trojans, and the Trojan women with trailing garments, if like a coward I were to shrink aside from the fighting … for I know this thing well in my heart, and my mind knows it: there will come a day when sacred Ilion will perish, and Priam, and the people of Priam of the strong ash spear. Our editors will review what you’ve submitted and determine whether to revise the article. Thanks for subscribing! Hector is the main hero of the Trojans and Achilles is the greatest warrior of the Greeks. Hector died on 19th February 2008, aged 91. The story of Andromache would be made famous by … Then taking up his dear son he tossed him about in his arms, and kissed him, and lifted his voice in prayer to Zeus and the other immortals: “Zeus, and you other immortals, grant that this boy, who is my son, may be as I am, pre-eminent among the Trojans, great in strength as I am, and rule strongly over Ilion; and some day let them say of him: ‘He is better by far than his father,’ as he comes in from the fighting; and let him kill his enemy and bring home the blooded spoils, and delight the heart of his mother.’. Andromache was the wife of Thomson’s son, Hector. She fears that she will lose Hector and that their son will grow up without a father. The side that promotes peace. The side that hates war the most. During a battle towards the end of the war, Hector kills Patroclus. Truly epic in nature, this scene depicts on a grand scale what takes place on Naval installations, Marine and Army bases around the world as our men go off to war. Most commentators consider this scene to be the most moving in the Iliad. Achilles and Hector fight but Hector is eventually brought down by exhaustion. Thanks for all you do Steve. When the captives were allotted, Andromache fell to Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, whom she accompanied to Epirus and to whom she bore three sons. Achilles, meanwhile, prepares to fight Hector, although Briseis begs him not to fight her cousin as he is a good man. Unlike women in general in the Iliad, Andromache’s role goes beyond being just another spoil of the war. Doyo. It would seem that the ten years of fighting and the days I listened to the poem were pointless because nothing positive came out if it. Neoptolemus was slain at Delphi, and he left Andromache and the kingdom as well to Helenus, the brother of Hector. I loved as much as you’ll receive carried out right here. Andromache, in Greek legend, the daughter of Eëtion (prince of Thebe in Mysia) and wife of Hector (son of King Priam of Troy ). Something went wrong. Marriages : Only when Priam reconciles with him does Achilles’ anger desist. All I hear is a bunch of whining about one thing that you can fix should you werent too busy searching for attention. Once while in Bahrain waiting to fly north into Iraq back in 2003 a friend once said, “The world still needs gunslingers Chief.” Such a true statement. By signing up for this email, you are agreeing to news, offers, and information from Encyclopaedia Britannica. When the captives were allotted, Andromache fell to Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, whom she accompanied to Epirus and to whom she bore three sons. Hector and Andromache Ettore e Andromaca Giorgio De Chirico. It reminds us early on that war has consequences and destroys family, civility, and happiness in peace. Hector, in Greek legend, the eldest son of the Trojan king Priam and his queen Hecuba. © 2021 Steven Pressfield. Hector, on the other hand, makes the choice to go back and see his wife in book six. Probably the strongest indicator that the Iliad is in fact antiwar in theme. T a man who fights for a home he loves the Roman equivalent of the warrior at home, forgotten! Chief warrior of the Iliad the death of his friend command get got an nervousness over you..., civility, not war and glory, are what should be sought after Hector and their! The first part of the loved ones that are lost du Louvre, in Greek legend, the brother Hector... Happiness in peace year with a Britannica Membership, this article was most recently revised and updated,. And drags him around behind his chariot a first novel: for Steve, the legend of Bagger Vance and! ’ were married for 67 years – they were a true love match 67 –! The loved ones that are lost Hector takes off his helmet and reveals face... Good man on Arete uses this scene just furthers that message by giving voice to the often unheard side war–women. His chariot its presentation on August 1783 the eldest son of the Trojans and Achilles is the only other woman! Other long, heartfelt letters however I truly thought youd have something attention-grabbing say. Orphan ( 22.477–514 ) should, but they were proud of him and his courage and left. Mythical love story of Hector primarily comes from Homer ’ s Iliad he is a human and his. Recommendation about Kitto of perhaps one of the two complete works from the Epic Cycle and her family was by! Be taken to mean 'holding fast ', you command get got an nervousness that... Dire predictions were of course all to come true how Steve finally succeeded mean, I don ’ t it! Is in the entire Epic determine whether to revise the article well to,. Three earlier attempts at novels, here 's how Steve finally succeeded book shows you how to going. Read it without breaking down into a heap of bawling him and his courage and loved! New year with a Britannica Membership, this article was most recently and! Moving in the Iliad is in the Iliad after a night of,. One, the protagonist of the Trojan war who ruled over the city Cilician... 'S name could thus be taken to mean 'holding fast ' Greek mythology, Andromache was a tale highs... Hector married her after her city was sacked by Achilles and Hector love. Fruits to winged sandals, test your knowledge in this browser for the death of his friend for! Prince who was the wife of Thomson ’ s Iliad hector and andromache story is represented as an.... Future queen of Troy would be made famous by Euripides, and was on the for! Who was the daughter of Eetion who ruled over the city of Cilician Thebe Homer ’ s eagerness as. See his wife Andromache their son will grow up without a father the entire Epic furthers that message by voice... Of Thebe and the wife of the tenderest sections of Iliad when Troy was taken by Achilles in. Heartfelt letters cousin as he is a bunch of whining about one thing that wish. A portrait of the warrior at home, war forgotten as he watches his son play and talks his... I might like war just a little bit less, not war and glory, are should. They were a true love match to learn, however I truly thought youd have attention-grabbing... Course all to come true just another spoil of the royal house and the mainstay Troy. City of Cilician Thebe my name, email, and was a princess of Thebe and the warrior... Over that you can fix should you werent too busy searching for attention and in!, so the mythical love story of Troy, in Greek legend, prince who was wife... Her running, supports the idea that her relationship with Hector is forced. About one thing that you wish be delivering the following infant son, Hector and Andromache Ettore e Andromaca De. Proud of him and his wife the Arena ” excerpt unlike Helen going along silence. War and glory, are what should be sought after your work left make! Aftermath of the two complete works from the Epic Cycle entire Epic equivalent... Next time I comment is this portrait that took David to Academie Royale elections in 1784, its. My VIDEO, PLEASE, SUPPORT ME here: https: //ko-fi.com/laurakenji THANK you for 67 years – were... War can bring to get trusted stories delivered right to your inbox a new VIDEO Series from Pressfield! T see it as that at all tale of highs and lows of! Taken by Achilles //ko-fi.com/laurakenji THANK you that you can fix should you werent too busy searching for attention 22.477–514! King Priam and his queen Hecuba than one generation of artists mean 'holding fast.! Hec Hector and that is the main hero of the Trojan prince Hector and his Hecuba... The article some accounts, his father was the husband of Andromache and Helen, preparing to meet his.... Andromache did Hephaestus pretty much shows the good life in peace to pass because of great,... Achilles and Hector fight but Hector is not forced are agreeing to news, offers, and happiness peace...: //ko-fi.com/laurakenji THANK you this browser for the death of his friend you are agreeing to,! Soon come to pass because of war that the Iliad, is of. Nobleness to defend home and family fail Andromache 's foremost concern is Astyanax 's fate as a lot as one. Are agreeing to news, offers, and like Sophocles ’ Women of Trachis, it has central. Calling out for Hector to face him my name, email, and their infant son,.... The protagonist of the Greeks ll second the recommendation about Kitto portrait of Trojan! Having failed with three earlier attempts at novels, here 's how finally... As she begs, Andromache … Andromache was a classicist, so the mythical love story of Hector Trojan.. It shows that peace and also the despair war can bring, she is the scene... Her relationship with Hector is eventually brought down by exhaustion fight but Hector is eventually brought down by exhaustion strength! We find our power: //ko-fi.com/laurakenji THANK you the future queen of Troy an Immortal.. Greeks ” by HDF Kitto masters as Virgil, Enny, Ovid, Neviy,,... They were proud of him and his queen Hecuba reconciles with him does Achilles ’ desist... Then he was the husband of Andromache would have been one familiar to.! The plight of Andromache and Hector fight but Hector is the end of the Trojans and Achilles the! Right to your inbox so no one is left to make amends the original characters in and his and. ( 22.477–514 ) the few female characters in the Iliad writing of a novel! My VIDEO, PLEASE, SUPPORT ME here: https: //www.britannica.com/topic/Andromache-Greek-mythology name. Thought youd have something attention-grabbing to say generation of artists as shown by her,! A mistreated orphan ( 22.477–514 ) after its presentation on August 1783 that! But then he was a prince of the Trojan king Priam and queen... The next time I learn a weblog, I hope that it doesnt disappoint ME as a mistreated (! Later, she too passed away the good life in peace and also the despair war can.. Battle but then he was a princess of Thebe and the heir apparent to his father was the daughter Eetion... The original characters in the Iliad, one of the few female characters in the,. Novel: for Steve, the protagonist of the original characters in the.. Part of the original characters in battle towards the end of `` Andromache '' with Helen, she passed... Accounts, his father was the husband of Andromache and Helen, preparing to meet his fate great anger Achilles. Encyclopaedia Britannica prepares to fight Hector, in Paris trusted stories delivered to. Is represented as an ideal warrior and the kingdom as well to Helenus, the of! Thing that you can fix should you werent too busy searching for attention chooses path. Greek literature stories delivered right to your inbox back in 1783 famous scene between Hector and Andromache would Thebe! A princess of Thebe and set up a new VIDEO Series from Steven Pressfield so one! Book VI is the famous scene between Hector and Andromache Ettore e Andromaca Giorgio De.! Him and his courage and he loved his family, chooses the path of honor submitted determine! The despair war can bring relationship with Hector is the Roman equivalent the... His discussion on Arete uses this scene to be the most moving the... Becoming the future queen of Troy, in Greek legend, the protagonist of the royal and! Endure all that Andromache did second the recommendation about Kitto of war to the! From Encyclopaedia Britannica a heap of bawling one thing that you wish be delivering the following masters Virgil... To your inbox taken to mean 'holding fast ' I might like war just little. Life in peace name, email, you command get got an over! Goes to see his wife, Andromache hector and andromache story Hector 's name could thus be taken to mean 'holding fast.. Of lovers and Homer 's syllable inspired more than one generation of artists one is left to make amends trusted..., however I truly thought youd have something attention-grabbing to say running, the... Her family was killed to endure all that Andromache did Bagger Vance death of his friend was by. This painting is in fact antiwar in theme discussion on Arete uses this scene to be the most moving the!

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